Colonial Place / Riverview
Haven Creek Ad Hoc Committee
Primary Contact: Steven Tobias
If you are interested in joining the discussion, email Steven at steventobias@worldnet.att.net or call 478-7977 so you can be contacted when meetings are planned.
Email everyone! When replying to email messages be sure to reply to the whole group.
September 2004: Regular monthly meetings are on hold until further notice
Meetings are normally held the last Tuesday of the month at 7:00pm at Enrico's Restaurant on Colley
Meetings are open
Call to confirm date and location if you are not on the email list
Last Updated 27 April 2005
Postings are in chronological order. The most recent postings will be at the end of the page. Use this link to get to the beginning of the latest update. If you feel something important has been edited out email your concerns to jullian@sprintmail.com
Photo page links:
Wetlands near Larchmont Library
Paving, Bridge, and Sign Ideas
Views of the Haven Creek Gateway to Colonial Place
Current Condition of the Haven Creek Path
Lafayette River Trail--Big Picture View
Haven Creek--View from the Granby Street Bridge
Preliminary Drawing of Haven Creek Boat Ramp Improvements
1 December 2003: Steven Tobias email
Background and Call for an Organizational Meeting
Just to check in and let you know what I'm thinking. With each tiny piece of new information that comes my way, I am completely surprised how much history is involved and how complicated the issues are in that so many parties need to agree before we can move forward. How many days did it take to build Rome? The City owns the land and has evolving plans for it -- but different departments within the City have a different understanding exactly what these plans are... and the understanding of these plans change periodically. Neighbors and I are talking about gathering together in an "organizational" meeting to vaguely form our own "common vision" that would fit into the City's vision so that when we meet with City representatives, they will see our interest and unity in moving forward and working together. Assuming we can establish a core group of neighbors willing to take this thing to second base, it is hoped we can meet on site with Kevin Dubois, perhaps Chuck Joyner or/and others from the City to illuminate the City's current "plan", financing allocation, and committed date and hopefully inspire all parties for getting the momentum going that will achieve tangible results within a reasonable period (preserving what land is left after ongoing erosion). It stands to reason the City people in positions to make things happen will be more tuned in to moving forward when they see the enthusiasm to do so coming from our community. In the past it may be our lack of agreement amongst ourselves or cooperation with the city or overall interest in the project that has put Haven Creek on back burners. Some unresolved issues included disagreements on environmental give-backs or trade offs of wetlands acreage, available city funds (priorities), community fears for public "spaces" (walking path) in our "back yards", and general lack of interest or follow through from all parties resulting in setting aside the project and letting "nature" decide for us. I hear dates thrown around like 2006 for ambitious city projects but I think until we take this bull by the horns, nature and privately (homeowner) paid contractors will be the order of the day. I've spoken to Maggie at Enricos Restaurant and we can hold an organizational meeting there though I am thinking it would attract more participation in this initial contact if we meet closer to the site, at someone's home. Maggie would prefer we meet on a Monday or Tuesday night and of course, an organization paying for the space would have priority over us. If you want to come to this meeting, let me know your preferred date. Tentatively, to start the ball rolling, how about a week from tomorrow, Tuesday December 9th at 7PM? (Monday is a league meeting I guess.) This meeting, I'm thinking, is for us and bordering property holders. Once we have a core group organized, we can "advertise" through the newsletter for all interested in our neighborhood. Out of this meeting we'll call key people in city government to hopefully, meet us at the site so we can start a dialogue and exchange information. At this point, we're free spirits working on our own and crisscrossing paths. I think we'll get better results in a shorter period of time if we bring our free spirits together in a coordinated meeting of minds.
PSS Debbie, I thought you were going to reproduce Mayor Fraim's letter for our email group. I'd like a copy. Let me know where I can pick one up!
2 December 2003: Debbie Byrne email
Letter from the Mayor
Letter from the mayor: I can fax it to whomever this morning...just give me numbers
2 December 2003: Steven Tobias email
Organizational Meeting Update
Flyers are good. But I'd still like to go door to door and make a more personal, neighborly invite. We're more apt to work up interest for those who have never been to a community meeting before. I want to talk to one or two bordering neighbors and see if I can convince someone to host it at their house. That would make it more cozy and neighbor friendly and probably net us a better turnout. (We're only talking about a dozen or so households.)
5 December 2003: Steven Tobias email
Letter from the Mayor and Other City Contacts
Debbie Byrne's communication with Mayor Fraim is enlightening. In his letter dated November 21, 2003, the Mayor explains an "interim" solution of placing riprap to stabilize Haven Creek's bank is not affordable. A "Master Plan" to extend the bulkhead to this area is still the focus, with 2006 or thereabouts being the timetable for action. He assures us that the path will be "completely restored" in a similar time period. The bulkhead is primarily meant to prevent erosion, not necessarily flooding. They are still "designing" the segment between Connecticut and Delaware Avenues which will raise the elevation of the bulkhead along New York to reduce flooding. The mayor advises additional questions and concerns be directed to Chuck Joyner, Assistant City Engineer at 664-4648. His letter indicates carbon copies sent to Regina Williams, City Manager; John Keifer, Director of Public Works; and Sid Kitterman, City Engineer.
We'll want to learn more about the "Master Plan" (obtain a copy of it if we can) but perhaps ultimately our purpose will be to push up the date as best we can through our organized, community efforts. The city has shown in the past a responsiveness to community enthusiasm and priorities are always evolving as interest grows or wanes.
5 December 2003: Kathy Stark email
Possible Means to Mitigate Wetlands Loss/ BOB meeting with Dean Bowles
The BOB (Beautify Our Borders) Committee has requested a meeting with Norfolk's landscape architect, Dean Bowles, to look at the circle at Delaware and Colonial and the green space at Virginia and Mayflower. During my discussion with Dean, he mentioned that the area known as Plum Park is being landscaped, etc., and funded by a private business looking to mitigate wetlands loss elsewhere (that the company has caused). They're funding the project to the tune of $1.5 million. This situation with Haven's Creek is a little different, but if we can turn this into something that is environmentally compatible with the surrounding area, we may be able to take advantage of businesses looking to fund these types of projects in order to fulfill their obligations under the wetlands preservation act. Dean has knowledge about this process.
Dean is willing to meet with community volunteers to look at the creek area, as well as the other two areas mentioned to get an idea of the condition they're in and to start looking at and giving us ideas for improvement. He is available the week of Dec 15th anytime during the day except for: 7:30-8am Monday, 8:30-10:30 Wed, and Wed after 4:30pm. My vote is to meet in the afternoon, preferably after 2pm (during daylight hours), on any day between the 15th and the 19th. If others are interested also, please give me feedback about which days will work for you and I will arrange a meeting with Dean.
This is just another avenue we can explore. If you want to hold off on meeting with Dean about the creek area, the BOB Committee members can meet with him about the other two areas.
5 December 2003: Bill Nusbaum email
Wetlands Mitigation
As a real estate lawyer who knows a little bit about wetlands mitigation, I think the key issue to contend with will be whether the wetlands which will be destroyed in rebuilding the vanished bulkhead and eroding bike path need to be replaced by creating new wetlands elsewhere. I think the general rule is that if the destruction of wetlands is a small enough area, replacement of the wetlands elsewhere won't be required, which is probably our best hope. I can't really envision a bike path reconstruction scenario which represents a net gain of wetlands on site (other than the elevated boardwalk idea, which I think is probably unworkable and too costly to maintain), so I think the prospect is remote that the work on the bike path would create new wetlands that could be banked for others to use as mitigation.
10 December 2003: Steven Tobias email
Unofficial Synopsis of Organizational Meeting
Our first meeting went well, ideas flowing, concerns expressed. Below is a short (very short!) overall description of ground we covered. Some of us are exploring specific assignments. We want to stir up greater interest and reach those who would want to participate in the project. I'm throwing out ideas for the web site and/or newsletter. Feel free to revise, expand, or completely re-write. If someone would like to write a broader and more detailed piece for the newsletter, go for it! Feedback, please?
Press release (draft):
An ad-hoc committee of concerned and motivated neighbors met on December 9th to discuss the Haven Creek wetlands/walking,jogging,biking path/bulkhead/street and property flooding. The discussion continues on a two tiered basis: to discuss short term, severely needed, immediate repair to rapidly eroding land mass and developing a longer term vision for what we'd like to see happen in this part of our neighborhood. While time is of the essence over the short term in building a barrier between water and land and protecting what is being damaged, we want to explore options that best restore our wetlands and the public path between New Hampshire and New York Avenues. We also want to look at the bigger picture, envisioning how we might tie the perimeter of our neighborhood together, connecting Colley Avenue with Granby Street in a continuous public area which accents the unique advantages living in our pocket of Norfolk. If you are interested in joining the discussion, please email steventobias@att.net or call 478-7977 so you can be contacted when meetings are planned.
Finally, do people feel our smaller, organizational core group is best meeting alone without attempting to broaden our base until that time we have a more defined vision and steps to get where we want to go?
10 December 2003: Steven Tobias email
Conversation with Chuck Joyner
Late Wednesday afternoon I spoke with Chuck Joyner, Assistant City Engineer. His callback came when I was in transit and while unable to jot down notes, here are some of the points discussed:
1. We have almost a zero chance securing FEMA funds. The city tried to get money for beach damage without success.
2. There may be some money available for Haven Creek. Chuck is preparing a report for city council due Jan 5th requesting funds for bulkhead construction along the entire "western" part of Haven Creek, restoring the current bike path to eight feet (?), and repairing the boat ramp among other things. While this request is an internal matter only, it puts our issues on the burner for council to take up if it chooses to. (My guess is it will be in our interest to don the "squeaky wheel" pose as this request goes to council.)
3. Without special new permits, the city is allowed two feet outside the river/land barrier to build/restore a bulkhead.
4. There are plans along the eastern part of Haven Creek, alongside Peter Decker's property, for improvements.
5. Chuck referred several times to the November 21, 2003 letter sent to Debbie Byrne from Mayor Fraim (and reviewed by those of us who were able to attend the meeting on Tuesday). It would be helpful if we could scan this letter and put it on the website-- or at least scan it so those who weren't able to come Tuesday, can read it now.
6. Chuck invites us to contact him again around Christmas for an update.
10 December 2003: Sheila Janes email
Writing and Speaking before City Council
I think we should start a letter writing campaign to each city council member to put some emphasis on moving this project up. I'm thrilled that Mr. Joyner is recommending that this issue be "put on the burner". It would be nice if the council members could have our letters before or at the time he turns in his recommendations. Seated all around me last night were incredible public speakers - any chance of anyone speaking before the council in January on this issue? I also have the e-mail address of the residents along Haven Creek who want to help further this cause but were unable to make last night's meeting.
10 December 2003: Bill Nusbaum email
City Council Meetings
FYI, generally the first City Council meeting of each month (e.g., Jan. 5, 2004) is a "policy" meeting where they hear reports but generally don't act on many action items. I'm not sure to what extent speakers are allowed/encouraged. Moreover, there's always the possibility the presentation re: Haven Creek may be made in the "informal session" which is conducted over lunch in the Mayor's Conference Room on the 11th floor of City Hall, rather than in public session. (There's definitely no opportunity to speak in the informal session, unless someone on the Council asks you to address an issue.)
City Clerk, Breck Daughtrey, is a long-time resident of Riverview and generally interested in and friendly to our neighborhood's causes.
11 December 2003: Kathy Stark email
Questions and Concerns
This a good start, however, the city needs to base their plans on what the community as a whole wants. That's why this committee was formed - to research viable options for that area, to educate our residents about the possibilities, and to partner with residents, the city, and whomever else can assist in furthering our goals - once we decide what direction to take.
It is my opinion that the bulkhead restoration needs to be tied to public access along that area, namely a walking/biking path. The bulkhead should not be built without a written guarantee and funding for the path restoration occurring. We also need to have input into how the path is restored, as well as the type of bulkhead we need and want. I would like to see a more environmentally compatible and aesthetically pleasing path. I believe a temporary fix right now for the path is what is needed until the community has weighed in on what it would like to see there. This area borders our community and can be seen from alot of different angles by residents and passersby alike. It's important that whatever happens there is attractive and complements the community in a positive way. Before we move forward on the bulkhead or the path, it would be prudent to get the Elizabeth River Project Organization and the wetlands board an opportunity to visit the area and give us their opinions on what is optimum.
As far as the boat ramp is concerned, I would like to see it restored so that non-motorized boats can use it. Restoring it so that larger boats can launch will mean more pollution in our neighborhood waterway, as well as more noise. That will negatively affect residents, and wildlife - namely the water birds that inhabit our river. I would also like to see jet skis restricted from using our waterway for that reason. Jet skis are so noisy they affect the habits of wildlife; such as feeding, etc.
I am pleased that the council is interested in seeing this area rehabbed. It does concern me however, that they have asked for a report to use to fund future improvements without receiving input from our community. It seems the cart has been placed before the horse. I can't believe I'm saying this, but we need to slow this process down until we are firmly inserted into it.
I would also like to know what plans exist to improve the Decker property. Is the city planning on funding these improvements? And if so, why are they improving private property using taxpayer dollars?
11 December 2003: Bill Nusbaum email
Seize the Opportunity
We need to be mindful of the balancing act between ideal environmental project and a woefully stretched City capital budget. If we ask for a Cadillac of a bulkhead and path - or for something that's environmentally sound and inexpensive but has substantially higher ongoing maintenance costs or a shorter expected lifespan - or even for something that requires two rounds of construction (a temporary fix now and a permanent fix in a few years) we're likely to end up with nothing or a long wait, instead of getting a usable, if utilitarian, bulkhead and pathway in the next few years.
We should weigh in with our thoughts right away, and get the best we can get, but I think we should be sure to "carpe diem" - seize the opportunity and don't let it escape by asking too much more than we can reasonably expect to get.
As far as the boat ramp is concerned, I'm certainly no fan of jetskis; you can sink 'em for all I care. As far as non-motorized boats, you will recall the sketches which accompanied the City's General Plan amendments suggested a canoe/kayak put-in area on the east shore of the southern end of Haven Creek (roughly where the old Power Squadron building was), so perhaps that could also accommodate sailboats.
As to the Decker property, it is not unusual for municipalities to incentivize private projects that need a kickstart or are borderline economically but important to the health of the City. Sometimes it's done through a public-private partnership or an authority, and sometimes it's done by providing below-market financing, and sometimes it's done by upgrading public facilities which will serve the private property (e.g., improving the roads, intersections and utilities that will serve the project at the public expense rather than making the developer pay for them). Typically, public investments such as these are only made if the tax revenues and other public financial benefits which will flow over time from the development will result in the repayment to the municipality of all the public funds which were invested in getting the project off and out of the ground. So the calculus ends up being in those cases, "If the project won't happen without some City financial help, will the City recoup its investment over a reasonable period of time through project-related municipal revenue streams (taxes, ground rents, etc.)?" Of course, nothing would serve this purpose better than condemning the Motel; that might make much of the other improvements by the City financially unnecessary!
12 December 2003: Kay Corr email
Vision for Haven Creek
The walk along the river and Haven Creek is the primary reason I chose Colonial Place as my home. Ours is one of few neighborhoods where public access to the river is real. The ideal use of this resource is for pedestrians, peddlers and paddlers. The more effort made to improve the bulkhead and incorporate a more aesthetic and usable path, the better our community will be. As property values increase in our neighborhood, so do they in the surrounding areas too. That is a win/win scenario.
Our area parks and recreation could easily rent bicycles and canoes. This may even increase revenue for the improvements, especially the canoes. The canoes may even discourage the city to use the boat ramp for anything with a motor. Encourage the use of the river in this way, and it will fall into place.
A bigger picture could expand to incorporate each park in the whole city. It would be a wonderful feature of Norfolk if a hike and bike path could connect each of the city parks as well as the college campuses and event centers. I do a lot of walking, and even ride my bike whenever possible. I would venture out further if I could. However, if you are going to get me to walk, or ride my bike around town,you are going to have to give me a safer way to do it.
12 December 2003: Kathy Stark email
Feedback to Seize the Opportunity
I do think we should seize the day and let the city know what we want. My advice is to ask for what you want from the very beginning, not what you will settle for in the end. Our community and its residents deserve a wonderful walking and biking path. The opportunity for us to design a path that will meet our needs and desires now and into the future doesn't come around very often. We should be the architects of what we want our community to look like and be. We're in the best position to know what will complement our community and fulfill our desires. Not a developer. Not the city. I think it's reasonable to expect the city to respond appropriately to our requests. We've partnered, working long hours in the process, with the city for a long time now to develop our community and the surrounding business corridors. We've participated in ventures outside of our community to make Norfolk a better place for all of its residents. We've been successful in our endeavors. Besides, council works for us.
I don't think the request we make will be unreasonable. Nor should we expect so little that we end up being unsatisfied with the result. Did the city think it was unreasonable to spend millions of dollars in downtown Norfolk or Ocean View? No, they willingly spent the money to make those areas what they are today. The residents and business owners had big dreams. Those dreams today are very much becoming reality.
I am asking that the council's attention to now be focused on other areas of the city. One good place to start would be our neighborhood. We have the people living within our borders that can make wonderfully positive things happen. We've proven that time and time again. Now, once again, we just want the council to help us make something wonderful happen that will benefit our community and the city.
I understand that municipalities, in general, and Norfolk, specifically, has in the past provided incentives to developers to entice them to develop when there is little interest in developing certain properties. At least, that should be the criterion for offering incentives. What we need to ask ourselves is this: do we think there will be so little interest in developing in this area that the only way to stimulate development and subsequently increase tax revenues is to provide taxpayer funding to subsidize development?
13 December 2003: Steven Tobias email
Another view on where we are and where we are going
We can all hear the same conversation and come away with different interpretations on what was said. When I spoke with Chuck Joyner and he revealed an interest in pushing forward the timetable for bulkhead work on the western side of Haven Creek, I took it to mean continuing a similar bulkhead design we see already in place in other parts of Colonial Place and an action to stop the erosion that is currently devouring waterfront along Haven Creek. I didn't hear it as creating a new plan but rather, continuing a project the community hasn't voiced objections to in the past and present. Repairing a bulkhead, I thought, is separate and distinct from our meeting now to discuss and create a longer term vision for all of our community's waterfront areas. My short term concern is based on my response from others that wetlands along Haven Creek is falling into the river and if nothing is done, given time, our conversation is pointless. On the other hand, I want to join in a discussion for the long term future of Haven Creek and the entire waterfront in which we have the opportunity to influence and help design. I would be interested in hearing the "group's" comments about work in progress and what you think of the work the city has already done creating a barrier to separate river from land. I know we all want the best waterfront design we can create-- and granted, "restoring the bike path", while a good interim thought, can wait while we take time putting our heads together and seeing if we come up with a better long term concept. Regardless, while Chuck's internal "request" to council is a plan for action, I didn't take it to mean an imminent action council would approve, fund and start work on the day after. We're in the beginning stages, hopefully, of what will be a community-wide discussion which at some point, will broaden to include city engineers as part of that discussion. Ideally, it's a community/city partnership with input from all resources, be they engineering, environmental, political, financial, as well as next door neighbors.
13 December 2003: Sheila Janes email
Step-by-Step Plan
I also feel that we are embarking on two separate projects that tie in together. The Haven Creek walking path is in a state of disrepair. It needs to be addressed as well as the end of New York Avenue ASAP. Time is crucial, as with each spring tide, more and more damage is done. While I do not want a cheap fix, I don't think that we have to stall this project while we pull together a long term vision of a walking path around Colonial Place that will tie Colley in with the zoo. We already know that this area will be tied into the long term vision of a walking path - so we can move ahead with the Haven Creek project while we create a vision of the whole neighborhood. I do think that we should gather different opinions. Find out what the bordering neighbors need to complement their property. Find out what will do the least amount of damage to the environment to please the environmentalists. Find out what will be the sturdiest and have the longevity with the best price to please the economists. Find out what is the most aesthetically pleasing for the artists. Find out what will be the most foot friendly surface to please the athletes and find out how to please the moms by making it safe. Then take all those ideas and be sensible in designing a suitable walking path and a suitable protection of the creekside, present it to the city, and then hope they go for it or are at least willing to negotiate. We should let the city know we find this project urgent and would like to be consulted with the design.
Research:
Step 1 - Let city know this project is important/urgent to us and we would like to be included in the planning / design process. (by phone?, letters?, in person?)
Step 2 - Meet with the bordering neighbors to see what their needs are (done)
Step 3 - Meet with the environmentalist to see what their needs are (ODU recommended the Chesapeake Bay Foundation;who would like to organize this meeting?)
Step 4 - Meet with the artists to see what their needs are (Landscape architect -Kathy Stark)
Step 5 - Meet with the engineers to see what will last (Sid Kitterman, the City Engineer-does anyone want to organize this meeting?)
Step 6 - Call another meeting to combine all great ideas sensibly
Step 7 - Present plan to city for Haven's Creek Area Emergency Project Solution
Step 8 - Agree/Disagree/Compromise
Step 9 - Construct
Step 10 - Celebrate with a party
Ongoing side step - draw up/make a visual plan of our neighborhood's vision for a beautiful/functioning walking path that surrounds the waterfront area of our neighborhood that could be circulated for approval from residents.
Are there more steps that should be added/deleted before our next meeting?
14 December 2003: Sheila Janes email
Articulated concrete blocks
If you get a chance - click on this link and look at the shore line. This is an example of an articlated mat used along a path. This particular type is a hand placed open cell. I know nothing of the cost - just thought I would throw out a visual for discussion. It is nice to look down and see the crabs moving about and ducks being able to walk up the shore. http://www.acfenvironmental.com/itemdetail.asp?ItemID=354
The following are some other links.
http://www.acfenvironmental.com/itemdetail.asp?ItemID=355>
http://www.greenvillebridge.com/1a1_jan_02.htm
http://www.landandwater.com/features/vol44no2/vol44no2_1.html
14 December 2003: Sheila Janes email
Money in City Budget?
It appears there is a proposal for an increase in monies put into the budget for 2003-2004 that might apply to our project.
PUBLIC HEARING scheduled this day, under the State law, public notice having been inserted in the local press by the City Clerk to hear comments on a proposed Ordinance to amend and reordain Sections 1 and 2 of the Capital Improvement Program Budget for fiscal year 2003-2004, SO AS TO amend funding by $7,517,000 for existing projects under the General Capital Improvements Projects entitled “Beach Erosion Control” in the amount of $4,517,000 and $3,000,000 for “Neighborhood Streets, sidewalks and walkways repairs” and so as to increase funding by $6,640,600 under the Storm Water Utility Fund Project entitled “Storm Water System Improvements”; and So As To provide the funds therefore by reducing the Willoughby Revolving Fund Project by $175,000, reducing the Neighborhood Conservation/Revitalization Project by $325,000, by transferring from the General Fund Operating Budget Contingency $467,000 and the Capital Projects Fund Balance $3,550,000, and $9,640,600 to be reimbursed by the Federal and State Governments
15 December 2003: Jeanne Ullian email
More Info on Articulated Concrete Blocks
You should be able to get the information you need from Chuck Joyner. The city plans to use articulated concrete block on the next phase of the Mayflower Bulkhead project. Prices given in the 1999 presentation to the Civic League indicate the same 50 year longevity at half the price as what has been built so far. If you are just looking for a friendly walking path surface take a look at the open concrete blocks used for the path in the wetlands restoration near the Larchmont Library on Hampton Boulevard. Wave action does play into the choice of design--not just price, which is why I assume the city chose to go with one design on the Lafayette River part of the bulkhead and another further down the creek. It appears the articulated concrete block design (due to the slope of 2 to 1) will allow for the launching of small craft (canoes and kayaks) anywhere along the bulkhead--especially at high tide.
16 December 2003: Kathy Stark email
City Plans for Haven Creek plus Decker Property Update
Right now it appears that the city will submit plans to construct a vertical bulkhead (steel) on the outside edge of the walking path. They also have plans to widen the path to eight feet, as I believe Steve told us, and to renovate it to look the same as it does now (same material-asphalt). They are also planning to widen the boat ramp to twice its current size and create finger piers on each side of the boat ramp so that boaters will have an area to launch their boats. The plans have been created (mock-ups) at the request of the council because they are now interested in moving forward with this project. The project, as it stands now, will be funded using the specifications outlined here.
Two weeks ago Abiouness/Decker submitted site plans to be reviewed by the city. The plans show a condominium community. It also shows piers along the creek.
If we want to have input into the city funded plans, the time between Jan and Mar of 04 is our window of opportunity. After that, the plan and funds will be submitted to the city manager and subsequently to the council. Next fiscal year's budget ('05) is voted on by the council in May 04. I do not know when the plans for the Abiouness/Decker property will be approved.
16 December 2003: Steven Tobias email
Alternative to Steel Bulkhead
A vertical bulkhead made out of steel? Offhand, that doesn't sound esthetically pleasing, natural, or lasting. I'm still thinking we invite Chuck Joyner (or/and other city engineers/officials) to meet us on site and give us an overview of the city's near term plans, to answer our questions, and allow us the opportunity to voice our concerns. I'm hoping Dean Bowles can give us information on Thursday. I spoke with a bulkhead materials/manufacturing/distribution salesman on articulated mats who enlightened me there are as many materials as there are different situations and each situation calls for a closely studied appraisal to find the right combination of materials to best satisfy all requirements. He is willing to come to Norfolk and look at our situation with us but he also wanted to know the "contact" people inside city government . Below are a few websites and lots of pictures: (He works for Contech.)
http://www.armortec.com/solutions/solutions.htm
http://www.armortec.com/
http://www.contech-cpi.com/
Knowing the city is pushing forward with plans, I think we'd better set up some meetings with environmental groups, too, in January. We need to "get up to speed" quickly if we are to have enough information to propose alternatives to whatever the city is proposing.
17 December 2003: Steven Tobias email
Odds and Ends
Odds and Ends: Here's where (I think) we are: While there's some disagreement on what sort of bulkhead they're building on Knitting Mill (some say, the same materials as are on Northern Mayflower-- some think, a variation of porous concrete blocks), the City appears to be (suddenly) pushing forward on Haven Creek to continue the same bulkhead design as on our northern border. Coincidentally, Abiouness/Decker sometime around December 1st, submitted plans for review by the city, to build a condominium community with piers along the creek. The city wants to renovate our eight foot bike/walking path with asphalt. Someone suggested we might want to use articulated mats in lieu of an asphalt walking path since we can walk on these mats and not do environmental harm. The mats soak up rainfall so runoff into the creek is limited. At this point, we're not sure what the relationship is between the city and the duo developer team but we do know neither party is seeking our input. While we still want to take some time to research and create a long term vision for our waterfront community, time is of the essence in seeing that renovation and innovation along Haven Creek is as good as we can envision/negotiate. What about our flooding problems? I wonder how the city is suddenly finding money in its overstretched budget to make inessential improvements that move the developer's project forward? Several different designs have been expressed here for renovating the boat ramp, tying it in to a long term vision of non-motorized craft and neighborhood recreation. The city is moving forward with its own boat ramp design which may or may not complement its own "Master Plan" it created, I believe, back in 1992, suggesting a quieter, recreational "canoe/kayak put-in area on the east shore of the southern end of Haven Creek".
The meeting with Norfolk's landscape architect, Dean Bowles, is, I hope, the first of several meetings with key city officials. I would like to set up a meeting this month if possible (or very early in January) with city engineer's, Sid Kitterman or Chuck Joyner on site to give us more detail on the city's intentions and answer our questions. We want to see the mock-ups council requested from developers. Also, on the environmental front, we need to draw together wetlands professionals and environmental groups for their input, all before the city begins any work along Haven Creek that will effect forever our long term vision. The window of opportunity is open for (our) business.
17 December 2003: Sheila Janes email
Questions
Some questions I have:
- I read that the articulate mats is better for environment because it lets the water drain down through. I am curious, is another type of material put on top for the walking path? Would it be smooth enough for strollers, bikes, etc... How would the surface compare to the asphalt? Is there a place around town where I could see an example of an articulated mat used on a walking path?
- Someone mentioned that the plans call for the boat ramp to expand in width and create finger piers to launch boats. Is this to store boats also like along Knitting Mill Creek?
- What is being done, if anything, to address the flooding on New York Avenue? How high is the bulkhead that is being proposed?
- What about the entrance to the walking path - is there any mention on how to make the area from the New York entrance of the walking path to the dog park any safer? What about from the entrance of the walking path connecting to the sidewalk (or vise versa) down New York Avenue?
- Are there plans that we could see and circulate before meeting with Chuck Joyner? I'm not talking just written plans, but a visual of what they are proposing both sides of the creek to look like when they are done.
- From what I hear of the "city's master plan", the walking path ideally would wrap around the boat ramp and continue down to the Granby Street Bridge. I wonder if it would continue along the water on the other side of the creek and if so, is that included in the plans submitted by the Decker project? I know I'm ahead of myself, but would this include park benches looking back over to our side of Haven's Creek?
- If the plans for the Decker project are appoved the first go around, is there a projected constuction date?
- Would would be a target date for constuction on the Haven's Creek project if the plans submitted by Joyner aren't contested and the thumbs up is given by the city?
18 December 2003: Bill Nusbaum email
Some Answers to Questions
Answers to 2 of Sheila's good questions (don't know answers to any of the other questions):
The expensive part of fixing NY Avenue flooding will likely not be the bulkheading, but rather the need to elevate the street itself, or else to re-engineer the stormwater drainage system underneath the roadway. Often, the flooding comes from storm drain inlets set in the street at the curb through which, in times of flooding, the flood tide backs up into the street. Thus, even raising the bulkhead won't cure flooding unless some system to prevent backflow can be inserted at either the outflow into the creek or just below the curb at the drain site. The other solution is to raise the elevation of the entire street (and then, likely, the land behind it so as not to trap water behind the newly elevated street). And boy, that sounds expensive to me.
As to the walking path idea, my recollection of the sketches shown when the General Plan Amendments were adopted was that the Colley to the Zoo walking/biking path would, after rounding the end of Haven Creek at the boat ramp, go down the path of the (by then closed) former Llewellyn Avenue, before (ideally) passing underneath the south end of the Granby Street bridge and emerging on the Riverview side to tie into Holly Avenue. It would not materially cross the Decker Property, but merely front along it.
19 December 2003: Kathy Stark email
Report on Meeting with Dan Bowles
Well, we had quite a nice showing yesterday of interested residents on our tour...Haven Creek...
Haven Creek: Articulated pavers, asphalt and concrete were discussed as options for the walking path. Articulated pavers would be more environmentally friendly to the area. Dean said that pavers would result in an uneven surface because the earth between the pavers would settle, wash away, etc. A resident said that the manufacturer of the pavers told them that the dirt would not be washed away, that rain would soak in and go down into the ground.
In the areas between the path and where homes are located, invasive opportunistic vegetation has grown. The invasive vegetation has grown because the original supporting ground was disturbed at some point, killing vegetation that normally would have grown there. The invasive vegetation should be removed and spartina grass should be planted in it's place. That area would be considered wetlands.
In some areas (where the steps are located and beyond, the ground has sunk a couple of feet. It appears as if the dirt is leaching into the creek behind the bulkhead (that of course needs to be renovated).
Where the path ends, before the steps, there is wide open space. Dean said that any landscaping considered for that area should be minimal and salt water tolerant. It would be nice to extend the path to cover that area also. It would be nice to be able to walk a continuous loop around the neighborhood. What a wonderful amenity for the community that would be.
I know there were conversations among different groups during the walking tour. It would be nice if you would share your thoughts through this email forum so that we might all benefit from what was discussed.
Maybe soon we can schedule a meeting with Chuck Joyner to view the mock-ups of the proposed improvements to Haven Creek.
19 December 2003: Kay Corr email
Comments Related to Dean Bowles Meeting
Some of the conversations I heard included the ideas and questions below. I can not take credit for most of these comments, but am curious what others think of them.
River Related
- Rumors are the Boat ramp into Haven Creek is going to be widened with finger piers. It sounds like a nice ramp is planned. If you build a nice boat ramp, it will be used much more. What is planned to accommodate parking?
- Canoes, small sail boats and paddle boats are a real treat, for the families in them and those watching the view. A nice safe place to launch this non-motor craft is long over due. I would really like to be able to rent these type of craft myself, and have a safe no wake zone to paddle around.
- Can the public walking patch be improved to include a hike and bike trail around our entire community, from Virginia and Mayflower, around the river way including the Nichal Court pop out, around to the opposite side of Haven Creek, under (over or around) the Granby St. bridge. Then continue around the shore line in Riverview (is that a paper street?) and pick up Beach Street to Lavallette. I think that captures that idea somewhat.
- Ready for the controversial one… Trash cans... Why? I walk along the river often… with my dog… and the doggie bag to clean up after her. I would be cleaning along my way each time if there were only a public trash can coming up soon. The improvements to our neighborhoods public areas are coming. This will draw more people from outside our neighborhood…. and I don’t think we can stop it. I personally would not want to, as I believe Colonial Place has a "share the river" ideal like no other area. It is a feature of CP that I love and the main reason I am here. I hope we can embrace this, and at least give folks the "opportunity" to not litter along the way…
19 December 2003: Sheila Janes email
Trash Cans
I can relate with the need for trashcans along the area or at least an "adoption" of Haven Creek to keep it clean. A lot of the trash blows into the creek and then is washed up onto the shore for us to see. I don't think that the users of the walkway are disposing of their trash along there. It might be more beneficial to have a group adopt the area and routinely dispose of the trash that washes up along the side.
19 December 2003: Sheila Janes email
More on Trash Cans
Under the Granby Street Bridge is a fishing pier. When I went down the steps to the pier that first day I was appalled with the trash that was overflowing from the trashcan onto the pier. The next day I brought a box of 12 trash bags and filled every single one with nasty trash. I called the city and they said to leave it at the top of the bridge. It was several days before they came and picked it up. I'm sharing this story because with trashcans along the path comes the responsibility of dumping them. Would that be the responsibility of nearby residents or the city? I like the idea of trashcans if we can guarantee they will be well maintained.
19 December 2003: Joan Scholl email
Flooding
Another concern of mine is the secondary problem caused by the flooding at the east end of New York. New York seems to be a preferred route to Delaware for many residents and when the east end of the street becomes impassible they choose to turn around in the street where no turning space exists. This means they pull into the yard at 4703 Mayflower and either get stuck or chew up the turf trying to get out of the soft ground. That portion of the yard doesn't drain into Haven Creek since the advent of the bike path so it becomes a car eating soft spot.
We need to find a solution to the problem as there appears to be no quick fix for the flooding. Perhaps the best solution to handle the effects of the flooding and the inconsiderate drivers is to close off the intersection of New York and Mayflower until the flooding can be dealt with. Every street to the north of Mayflower is a dead end as it reaches Haven Creek so there should be no problem tying into the bike path or with the aesthetics of the Creek.
If Mayflower is a dead end as it reaches New York in front of Lafayette Towers it would be a safer route from the existing bike path to the dog park also. Colonial is a wider street and better able to handle the car traffic moving to Delaware.
19 December 2003: Kay Corr email
More on Trash Cans
I have checked. The city will maintain the trash cans, empty them and such. We just have to make sure the trash gets in them instead of on the ground. I know the Hague has cans along it's public path. I'll make a point to check them out and take some digital photo's of the area around them.
19 December 2003: Steven Tobias email
Meeting Scheduled with Chuck Joyner
I've arranged for Chuck Joyner to meet with us on January 15th, a Thursday, at 3:30PM. We're going to meet at the boat ramp and go from there. Chuck will have the mock- ups and update us on requests he will already have submitted to council (in the first week of January). I would think no council action would be taken without council study so we should have time to suggest amendments and changes to Chuck's requests if desired (or let council know one way or another what we think).
19 December 2003: Sheila Janes email
Path Options and Continuation of Path
Let me know if my thinking is correct: If we go with the articulated mat, it will be better for the environment, but the surface will be uneven, maybe even creating large gaps over time. If we go with the surface we presently have, while not being as enviro-friendly, it will have a durable, smooth surface that will accomodate walkers, strollers, and bikes. I wonder if more damage would be done to the environment by breaking up and tearing up the asphalt that is already there and then installing something different, as opposed to reasphalting and finishing up the edges? I wouldn't particularly mind the asphalt with nice, finished edges, wetland plants that don't grow 8 feet high, and an attrative bulkhead. Are these the only two options we are weighing for the surface of the path or are there more?
When we were walking on Mayflower Avenue in front of the Lafayette Towers with Dean Bowls, the group was forced to walk on the street, as there is no sidewalk to follow. We were fortunate at the time because there weren't any cars and we were able to walk right down the center of the road. When I pointed out that it would be nice to have a sidewalk to walk on, the question of where to put it came up. The street there is already extrememly narrow for a row of parking cars and two cars to pass. The way things are now, the only place to put the sidewalk would be on the property of Lafayette Towers. Do you think we should meet with the big wigs at Lafayette Towers and discuss the bulkhead meeting with them and see if they would be willing to pull the sidewalk the whole length of the front of their property to make the outlet of the walking path safer or is this something we bring up to Mr. Joyner and he initiates that conversation with the towers?
12 January 2004: Steven Tobias email
Meeting with Chuck Joyner
Please remember to mark your calendars for this Thursday, 3:30PM, at the Boat Ramp. It will be our first meeting with a city representative, city engineer Chuck Joyner, who will tell us the city's plans for Haven Creek east and west banks, the bike path, flooding, and the boat ramp. This will be our first opportunity in quite a while to express to the city our interest in what happens there and also express our desire to be "in" on the planning process. Currently the conversation is mainly between city engineers, the council that hires these engineers, and lobbying developers who know meeting with council is part of making their living. If we want a voice in what happens, we've got to show our faces and tell the city what we want.
20 January 2004: Steven Tobias email
Unofficial Notes on Meeting with Chuck Joyner
Thanks to those who were able to come to our Thursday afternoon meeting with Chuck Joyner. Enclosed are minutes from that meeting. If there are errors in my reporting or points left out, please take note and pass it around so we can make corrections and additions for the web site. To bring some of you up to date, I took my minutes report to the Civic League board last night for review and advice how best to proceed. The consensus of the board is to wait for a March or April City budget committee meeting when we will know for sure exactly what projects will be funded and when. The board may invite Chuck Joyner to speak at our general membership meeting in March.
My own sense was that we might use this interim period to take our own initiative to call on outside experts (in engineering, ecology, etc;) to help bring us up to speed so that we might be better equipped to contribute to whatever plans the city might have a funded mandate to proceed with. Granted, it would be a lot of work, possibly for nothing if funding goes against expansive plans we might come up. The board, far more experienced and politically savvy than I am, felt we need to know exactly how much money will be provided for what projects before we embark on a study of ambitious but theoretical possibilities. I feel the board is "the buck stops here" authority on these matters so our committee stands "adjourned" until after the City's budget committee meets and we revisit these issues in the Spring.
Haven Creek boat ramp renovation
Decker/Abiouness development
West side Haven Creek: bulkhead and pedestrian path
Focus on the particular issues on Mayflower Avenue between Delaware and New York Avenues: the area in front of Lafayette Towers north to the walking path
Chuck Joyner came with mock-ups of a renovated boat ramp. It included widening the existing ramp to twice its width to accommodate two boats or one larger boat and a second (or third) ramp, for smaller craft. There are finger piers in the plans. The plan does not address issues raised such as the possible effects of having larger craft in this creek, traffic congestion along Delaware Avenue, parking problems, trash, environmental and tidal issues. Does the community want to encourage smaller craft? City engineers are requesting $450,000 from Capital Improvement Project (CIP) funds to move forward with this design. The project is on a “fast track” as a result of the Decker/Abiouness plans moving forward.
Chuck also came with mock-ups presented to city council for the Decker/Abiouness property on the east side of Haven Creek. They are proposing erecting three buildings, a seven story “L” shaped high-rise fronting both the river and creek and two three story townhouses, built side by side, fronting along the southeastern inlet of the creek. Llewellyn Avenue may remain open or be closed. The design suggests entrance to the developer’s property off Llewellyn Avenue. As with the boat ramp designs, there are many questions raised and both plans seem very preliminary. The city owns waterfront land on the east side of the creek between the boat ramp and developer’s property but has no plans for this area now. If the developers are to build or renovate boat slips, they will need to do some dredging off the main channel. The city has said they will dredge a main channel to accommodate larger boats. We did not discuss the developers building plans. Keep in mind that any plans developers have must first go through a public hearing process. Some see a seven story high rise on the other side of the creek as an undesirable thing aesthetically. How might the boat ramp and Decker/Abiouness development effect wetland and river ecology?
Basically, the same bulkhead design (steel with concrete cap) that exists along our northern border and is now under construction along Knitting Mill Creek (with variations planned as the bulkhead moves south) is proposed for Haven Creek. The pedestrian (bike, jogging, walking) path goes hand in hand with bulkhead discussion and the community will probably want to study these two issues as one project. Initially the city was talking about restoring an eight foot wide pedestrian walkway on the west side of Haven Creek but is now talking about a five foot wide path that might be restored in the old path’s place or possibly moved closer to the bulkhead (much like it is around the northern perimeter of Colonial Place. Meantime, there is a suggestion the remaining wetlands (between the new pedestrian path and private property to the west) could be restored with intensive care (careful plantings and grading) satisfying environmental concerns. The city is allowed to extend two feet into the creek in building the bulkhead without environmental regulation problems. There was some talk about asphalt versus cement for a path with asphalt said to be a less expensive and more practical way to go. No other materials were mentioned. There was very little talk about wetland management and environmental effects and the aesthetics of different designs.
What has changed recently is again, due to ambitious developer’s plans, the city wants to move up Haven Creek projects that were unscheduled. Chuck estimates the current cost of path and bulkhead somewhere around $2,000,000. Realistically, he says about $500,000 is the maximum that can be allocated in any one year so he is proposing the path and bulkhead be built/renovated in four phases over four years. Again, the money would come from Capital Improvement Project (CIP) funds rather than storm water, sewer, or maintenance sources. While there is no scheduled start date, the City’s budget committee will be meeting in March or April to decide which projects will be funded in the near term. Because of the possibility of having funds available for these projects, it is important the community focus on these matters over the next two months so we can contribute to making this area something we can all feel good about. It is going to take an intensive effort on our part to get up to speed, gather information from experts in these fields so we come up with our own neighborhood input and partner with the city and developers to create the best vision possible for land use, protection of the environment, aesthetics, and community enjoyment.
There was much concern about the area between Delaware and New York Avenues where flooding is a persistent problem. Chuck says a “taller” bulkhead is not the answer, that flap valves on storm drains (as are being tried along Knitting Mill Creek) might help alleviate the problem. One complaint was the sharp turn where Mayflower joins New York being unsafe for traffic and pedestrians. Chuck suggests speed bumps to slow traffic and/or a raised pedestrian path. Residents on the 400 block of New York Avenue would like to see their street closed to traffic and have signed a petition for City council to that effect. There was talk of extending the pedestrian path to the boat ramp or to Delaware Avenue (and the dog park). Chuck felt some money allocated to the boat ramp might be used for this pedestrian path extension.
Finally there was brief mention of how far to extend the bulkhead along the west side of Haven Creek with some favoring including Nichal Court (northeast corner of Colonial Place) into the four year plan and some wanting to set that aside for another time.
21 January 2004: Kathy Stark email
Comments on Meeting with Chuck Joyner and CPRV Board Meeting
I was also at the board meeting last night. I came away with a different perspective. I did not think there was a consensus to wait until March or April for the budget committee meeting to plan. As Steve does, I encourage planning now so that we're prepared when the time comes to fund this project. I also encourage getting opinions from experts on the environment, etc. to talk with us about ideas that make sense for our community and the environment. Many times, these organizations learn about development plans after the process is well underway. Let's become a model for other communities (as we often are) and invite some of these groups to participate from the beginning. We may find that they have great ideas we haven't even thought about that can be incorporated into the design to make this project the best it can be. It also helps us to establish a positive relationship with them rather than a combative one. That's always to our advantage. Wetlands Watch is a local group we may want to contact. Their website is www.wetlandswatch.org. There are several people on their board that also belong to the historic preservation society in Norfolk. My experience with the preservation group is that they're reasonable, knowledgeable, creative people who have helped preserve some of Norfolk's valuable historic properties.
21 January 2004: Steven Tobias email
Re: Comments from Kathy Stark and Meeting Announcement
Kathy's right, a vote was never taken at the board meeting! We discussed our meeting with Chuck Joyner and I heard the last sentence spoken as a waiting for after the city's budget committee met. Then the conversation moved to other matters. The board had a lot of issues on the table and I took a moving on to other matters to mean the discussion on Haven Creek would be tabled until after the city acted. I had hoped the board would discuss our committee's next steps but really, in retrospect, there wasn't enough time.
Enrico's Restaurant is graciously providing us a place to meet next Tuesday, the 27th, at 7PM. Hope you can come with your questions and ideas. See you next Tuesday.
27 January 2004: Steven Tobias email
Topics for January 27th Meeting
Weather aside, our Haven Creek committee is meeting at 7PM tonight, Tuesday, January 27th at Enrico's Restaurant. We've got two months before the city's budget committee decides on financing. During this time we want to examine the possibilities and opportunities a project of this magnitude might consider. This is an opportunity for us to use our imagination and skill to find or think up fresh ideas the city or developers might not have suggested or thought about. We may find it useful to organize into research groups to study in more depth specific interests. These subcommittees might want to invite professional and non-profit experts to share with us their views. I'm hoping we can have an article in February's newsletter inviting others in the neighborhood to work with us in shaping community positions. Hope the weather isn't nasty and you can make it tonight.
6 February 2004: Steven Tobias email
Minutes from 27 January 2004 Meeting
Attending: Jeff Stark, Kathy Stark, Kay Corr, Todd Corr, Bette Cheek, Joan Scholl, John Frazee, Steven Tobias, Andy Wallach, Sheila Janes, Melissa Baldi, Bill Nusbaum, and Craig Reilly.
We discussed moving the project forward with individuals volunteering to research specific aspects of the project.
John would like our group to have a rapport with Lafayette Towers. He is concerned with Mayflower Road from Delaware to New York Avenues and particularly the ninety degree curve from Mayflower onto New York and the lack of a sidewalk in the area. Chuck Joyner had mentioned a raised cross walk. One could ask for a traffic count.
John and Sheila have agreed to form a committee to study traffic safety, a community path connecting the old path with the dog park, as well as approaching Lafayette Towers to join in the discussion.
Kathy would like to contact environmental groups to learn more about our wetlands options as we prepare for bulkhead and community path renovation. It was suggested that she might want to do this through Chuck Joyner as there is concern an environmental group might hijack our project for its own agenda.
Jeff discussed differences between vertical and articulated mat bulkheads. While articulated mat construction may look better and be more environmentally sound, vertical bulkheads may be cheaper to build. Because of the narrowness of Haven Creek, we might lose the bike path if we were to rally around articulated mat construction.
Steven expressed an interest in bringing Nichal Court residents into the discussion.
Kay and Todd would like to focus on the community path and enlist those who use it—athletes, joggers, cyclists, and dog walkers to contribute their ideas.
Kathy and Bill volunteered to help Craig as liaisons between our group and the city.
Chuck Joyner has turned down an invitation to give a presentation before the league as he’d prefer waiting until after the budget committee has met.
Craig suggested we present an opportunity for everyone in Colonial Place to contribute in this discussion in our general membership meeting in March.
Our next committee meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, February 24th (but is not verified yet)
February 2004: Article-- CPRV Community Newsletter
Activity along Haven Creek
Activity along Haven Creek
Steve Tobias
Along the northeastern border of Colonial Place the Lafayette River becomes Haven Creek. Sterling Place Company built a bulkhead separating water and land in our neighborhood shortly after the turn of the last century. Some years ago the city of Norfolk began renovating the bulkhead in Colonial Place, beginning with our northern border and now continuing the renovation along Knitting Mill Creek. It’s an ambitious project and very expensive—so expensive that the City can allocate only a small portion each year of what is needed. Meanwhile, time is catching up with Haven Creek, one of the last sections of our community bulkhead needing attention. For years there have been issues surrounding the repairs needed along Haven Creek that have left the project in limbo – most important being the expense of mitigating wetlands that will be lost as a result of renovating the path and bulkhead and the lack of funding to accomplish these projects.
The bulkhead along Haven Creek continues to deteriorate. A once useful pedestrian path for walking, jogging, and cycling has deteriorated as a result. The land behind the dilapidated path has reverted to wetlands with invasive non-indigenous vegetation growing in it. Neighbors who once watched their children playing in back yards, now find their properties wet and often flooded. The path is almost gone in one section. Property values are sure to reflect these circumstances.
A team of developers, Al Abiouness and Peter Decker, now appear ready to move forward with plans to build along the eastern side of Haven Creek. Their willingness to develop a residential condominium and townhouse community is intensifying the interest of the city and creating a window of opportunity for us. Plans have been drawn at the request of the City that could triple the size of our public boat ramp off Delaware Avenue. The time line has been moved up for the beginning of work on the west side of the creek, renovating both the bulkhead and pedestrian path. Chuck Joyner, lead city engineer for this project, is in the process of submitting a request for funding to begin the long awaited restoration. The council’s budget committee will meet in late March or April to consider the request. Our Civic League will discuss this issue in the March meeting. A group of neighbors are meeting now to encourage and work with the city and developers to help move this project forward with their vision, intelligence, and creativity. This is our opportunity to get the best ideas incorporated into the design of the boat ramp, bulkhead, and walking path. The time has come. The window will only be open briefly and the project results will last for generations. If you want to share your community vision, add your muscle, and have some fun along the way, check out our corner of the web page at www.cprv.org “Haven Creek Project” and come to our meetings or call Steven Tobias at 627-8606. Remember, it is only by working together that we can successfully convey our vision of how we want one of the borders of our community to be used and appear. Let’s work together to create the vision and turn it into reality.
12 February 2004: Kathy Stark email
Update on Time Line
I talked with Chuck Joyner recently and in more depth about the timeline and process for giving the city input on this project. He relayed to me that there is $50,000 currently in the budget for design work. He has made a proposal to the city manager to include $450,000 to improve the boat ramp, and along with that, renovate the walking path and build a bulkhead (to New York Ave. I believe - correct me if I got that wrong).
When I spoke to Chuck in December, he told me that the timeline for us to provide input to the city was Jan-Mar 04. I asked more questions about the process last week and got a slightly different answer this time.
The budget proposal of $450,000 will be voted on by council in early May 04 for next year's fiscal year budget (Jul 04-June 05).
It is my understanding from talking with Chuck that a request to begin work on the project design will not be initiated until there's funding in the budget for the actual renovation phase of the project ($450,000). Since the 2005 budget will be approved in early May, that means the city can decide to request bids from contractors for the design work after the budget is approved in May. So, to make a long story short, we have a little more time to work on this project, but not much.
We may want to reconsider taking a vote on this in March. We may want to give league members an update of what we have found out so far in March.
1 March 2004: Steven Tobias email
Need minutes for web page
Before I completely forget, we've got to get some minutes from 2/24/04 posted. I started writing this (and haven't done a completely bad job!) but then I thought, why give my second hand view of how I heard things when the main substance of our meeting were your committee reports? I'll add to it but if it isn't a pain, I'm asking each of you to give me as much as you want to compile together into the formal minutes we can add to the website. Thanks!
2 March 2004: Jeanne Ullian email
Photos of Wetlands near Larchmont Library
Wetlands near the Larchmont Library
5 March 2004: Steven Tobias email
March Civic League Meeting
It's March already! Our March Civic League meeting features...hmm...us! I hope all can come to the meeting and add to the discussion. Monday, March 8th at Stuart School, 7PM. Craig will lead the meeting and discussion while Sheila, Kay, and Kathy will be talking about their subject specific research. We'll be especially focusing on the upcoming budget proposals to fund the renovation of the city boat ramp and bulkhead around the ramp as well as a walking path from the boat ramp to New York Avenue. The city wants to spruce up our Haven Creek area ahead of the development project on the other side. This should spark interest among people who have not yet discovered our committee for joining in the rectangle table discussions! What does the community want to see along Haven Creek? What do you want to see happen? There are people who want a community path and people who do not. Many roads seem to be leading in the direction of eventually building a vertical bulkhead in much the same manner as is already in place along our northern border (steel with cement cap). What are your priorities? Come and express yourself. Talk to friends who aren't regulars at these monthly gatherings but who you know care about this part of our neighborhood. A good showing stimulates a good discussion with diverse points of view. The more people we can attract to the table, the better our community results will be. It should be fun.
March 2004: Article-- CPRV Community Newsletter
Haven Creek Update by Steven Tobias
Our Haven Creek research and idea crunching committee met Tuesday, February 24th , in preparation for a general league discussion at March’s upcoming league meeting. Here is a preview from our sub-committees on what we will be talking about:
The New York Ave/Mayflower/Lafayette Towers point committee is moving forward. Residents of the 400 block of New York Avenue have expressed interest in closing off the end of their street and connecting the walking path with Delaware to the dog park to make the whole area much friendlier to pedestrians. Both Lafayette Towers and Norfolk Emergency Services have provided their input to help make this project a success. Come to the March meeting and hear all the details of how we would like to upgrade this area. (Sheila Janes)This committee has also been working with Chuck Joyner, the Haven Creek Project Engineer for the City of Norfolk. We look forward to very successful working relationships with Mr. Joyner and the city, as well as the other parties we have contacted. Contact Steven Tobias at 478-7977 if you would like to be involved in moving this worthwhile project forward to a successful conclusion. Our next committee meeting is tentatively scheduled for March 30th.Environmental and Engineering Subcommittee Progress: This subcommittee's job is to contact respected experts capable of assisting our community in evaluating and seeking innovative remedies to existing Haven Creek site conditions, and offer ideas on the implementation of new designs for the boat ramp, walking path, and bulkhead. So far I've talked with several board members (Ann Fitzgibbon and Pam Boatwright) of a local environmental group working to restore the Elizabeth River through partnerships with government, businesses, and the community, The Elizabeth River Project www.elizabethriver.org. I've also had discussions with a marine scientist (Walter Priest) working for the Virginia Institute of Marine Sciences Center for Coastal Resources Management http://ccrm.vims.edu. What they have all said is that this is a constrained site that doesn't lend itself to easy solutions. Despite that, they all offered some interesting and varied ideas on how this site might be redeveloped - which I will share with you at the March 8 civic league meeting. (Kathy Stark)
Improvements to the community path are conducive to recreational activities such as jogging, biking, walking and relaxing. Improvements will affect the aesthetic quality and usability of the path, sure to benefit all residents. Find out more at the next Colonial Place Civic League meeting. (Kay Corr)
8 March 2004: Committee Handout for March Civic League Meeting
Improvements to the Community Path handout by Kay Corr
Boaters
I have not been able to talk with any boaters. I will continute my efforts to include boaters. If you are a boater, please call me at 587-1357.
Ghent Neighborhood League
I have contacted the GNL in relation to "The Hague" area. I received an email from a member of the GNL board. GNL provided recommendations that we should consider.
1. "Set and post a curfew." Midnight was recommended. Is this already set? I could not locate a posting along Haven Creek.
2. "Install good lighting." There is lighting now. Is it adequate?
3. "Have the City install anti-litter signs and place adequate trash containers." Some of our neighbors cautioned the addition of trash containers may actually increase litter. There is a trash container located at the Greenway, near the Dog Park. Are there any problems? One neighbor commented that those who bring items to the river or creeks should be willing to remove it as well. This issue requires more investigation.
4. "Have signs posted against sleeping and pressure the police to enforce." The Hague area includes long wooden park benches ideal for sleepers. We should ensure our path does not. Nearby, there are two granite benches at Mayflower and Newport (the Memorial). To my knowledge, these do not attract "sleepers." A suggestion from one of our neighbors was to design the path to "encourage active use." Neighbors who wish to sit and stay awhile could bring a folding chair. Is there a compromise? All good considerations require more investigation.
Please contact this committe with your concerns and suggestions. The committee is looking for more members, especially those who are directly affected by the community path(s). Get involved, and guide the future of the community. (map)
8 March 2004: Committee Handout for March Civic League Meeting
New York Ave/Mayflower/Lafayette Towers Point handout by Sheila Janes
Resident's current concerns with this area:
1. Flooding at the end of New York Avenue causes traffic to turn around in our neighbor's yards.
2. The absence of sidewalks has residents walking their children and dogs in the street at the end of New York Avenue and on Mayflower in front of Lafayette Towers.
3. The blind curve is not wide enough for two vehicles to pass safely thus creating the scene for a head on collision.
4. Combine the blind curve with no sidewalks and pedestrians accessing the dog park or children's park find themselves walking in the street and facing head on traffic at the curve.
5. The addition of the dog park combined with the Haven Creek walking path creates an increase in foot traffic down New York Avenue and Mayflower, which residents enjoy, thus furthering the need for this area to be safer for pedestrians.
6. An apartment with 12 floors and 12 units per floor creates a lot of traffic both from residents and guests that could be diverted out to Llewellyn and down 38th Street instead of cutting through the Colonial Place neighborhood.
Solution:
1. Close off the end of New York Avenue and create a turn around area at the end of the street.
2. Continue the New York Avenue sidewalk to the Haven Creek walking path.
3. Tear down the chain link fence that currently collects trash, downed trees and vines along the Lafayette Towers parking lot and allow for fire vehicle access into the parking lot of Lafayette Towers from New York Avenue where the fire hydrant is located.
4. Eliminate parking on one or both sides of Mayflower Road in front of Lafayette Towers.
5. Connect the Haven Creek walking path with Delaware Avenue.
6. Install a crosswalk across Delaware Avenue to connect Mayflower with the children's park and dog park.
Who has provided input:
1. Petition with 400 block of New York Avenue residents asking for street closure
2. Carla Dean's (Lafayette Tower manager) asking for street closure.
3. Emergency Services providing input in the design which will allow access to both New York Avenue and the high rise Lafayette Towers. (map)
17 March 2004: Steven Tobias email
Comments on March meeting needed
Yes, I missed the 3/8 meeting -- shame on me! Regretfully, all I have to go on about the meeting is what I will hear from you. So I appreciate hearing from people, publicly in this forum or privately to my email address or telephone, 627-8606, your thoughts as to what happened and how valuable you feel our presentation was. From what I gather, the first speaker went on past estimated time and our presentation was cut short. The discussion we wanted to encourage hardly had enough time to materialize as Stuart Maintenance needed to close the building. People were left with questions and concerns. I do not see this as a lost opportunity as I think we stirred up interest and hopefully, new faces have discovered our Haven Creek committee and will be coming to our next meeting, scheduled for Tuesday, March 30th at 7PM at Enricos. There have been some complaints as to venue (the stereo system is too loud) so if anyone has a suggestion where else we might meet, speak up! Membership voted to endorse the city's moving ahead with planning for the boat ramp and surrounding area. We will have many opportunities in the future to encourage conversation and participation as the project continues taking shape.
20 March 2004: Steven Tobias email
February 24 Meeting Minutes from Kathy Stark
Environmental and Engineering Subcommittee Progress: This subcommittee's
job is to contact respected experts capable of assisting our community in
evaluating and seeking innovative remedies to existing Haven Creek site
conditions, and offer ideas on the implementation of new designs for the
boat ramp, walking path, and bulkhead. So far I've talked with several board
members (Ann Fitzgibbon and Pam Boatwright) of a local environmental group
working to restore the Elizabeth River through partnerships with government,
businesses, and the community, The Elizabeth River Project
www.elizabethriver.org
20 March 2004: Steven Tobias email
February 24 Meeting Minutes from Kay Corr
Kay Corr reported her findings in relation to the recreational benefits of the improved community path. I spoke with representatives from the Tidewater Striders Club, Contes Bikes and Fitness Equipment, and numerous neighbors via email, at the dog park or out walking on a nice day. Everyone I spoke to uses the current path, or route regularly. Some of those I emailed did not respond. There were a wide variety of surfaces recommended for the path (asphalt or concrete pavement, brick pavers, wooden decking, natural ground cover, etc). The majority leaned toward a packed and level natural ground cover or asphalt paving. Usability as well as cost and frequency of maintenance was a concern to all I spoke to.
The casual cyclist may use a path shared by pedestrians. Commuters and distance cyclist will typically stay on the roadside. I learned that there is a Bicycle route through Colonial Place along Colonial Ave (from 38th Street) and around Mayflower. I could locate only one sign on Colonial Ave at Carolina Ave. The primary concern of a cyclist is safety. Designated bike routes (adequately posted) are instrumental to increase awareness for the automotive community and safety of the cyclist. The cyclist recommendations include (most importantly) more signs to increase awareness of the route, and to limit parking to one side of the road along the route. The preferred surface for a bike route is 1) asphalt/concrete paved or 2) packed and level natural ground cover.
The walkers/runners will typically use the path. A path along the waterfront is preferred. The current path is not level and has some holes to look out for, making this impractical for runners, and arduous for walkers. The Tidewater Striders Club mentioned that concrete is the worst surface, as it has the least give. A drinking fountain, located near the dog park, green way and play grounds, would benefit many. Overall, the preferred surface for a walker/runner is 1) packed and level natural ground cover, 2) brick pavers or 3) asphalt/concrete paved. Some suggested a wooden deck similar to a bridge along Haven Creek, but recognized increased maintenance must be considered.
I will continue my efforts to include boaters. I will contact the Ghent Neighborhood League in relation to The Hague area that we should considered.
April 2004: Article-- CPRV Community Newsletter
Activity along Haven Creek
Activity along Haven Creek
Steve Tobias
The Haven Creek Committee was formed as a subcommittee of BOB (Beautify Our Borders), at first, as a group of volunteers whose modest goal was to clean up and maintain the western side of Haven Creek of trash that had over the years been accumulating in an area mostly ignored. Practically overnight, the subcommittee took on an entirely different character as developers on the eastern side of the creek inspired the city to take a new look at our western shoreline. They decided, with development moving forward on one side, that the time had come to take a second look at projects outlined but set aside due to the inevitability of having to prioritize projects in a pool of limited funds. As Al Abiouness and Peter Decker move forward with their development plans, a city engineer has requested funding be added to the 2005 budget to renovate the public boat ramp facing Delaware Avenue. Additional funding will be requested to build a bulkhead and restore the community path alongside the creek. The community’s paper street and bulkhead on Mayflower Avenue are proposed to be renovated over a four year period, in steps, proceeding north from the boat ramp up the west side of Haven Creek. While a project of this size takes time—the city says it cannot allocate more than $250,000 for this project in any one budget year—the planning for what will take place one, two, three, and four years from now is being researched, envisioned, discussed and debated now. Our committee’s mission is to learn as much as we can about possibilities for this area, by inviting experts to appraise the situation and help us create an intelligent and realistic goal we can take to the league board and general membership for a unified community position the league can then take to partner with the city to influence the best possible outcome for all stakeholders who are involved and care about what happens now and into the future. Our efforts are as good as the number of neighbor volunteers stepping up to the plate and the quality of those experts we can reach and who participate in the process. Good planning takes time and tireless effort. But that doesn’t mean we aren’t enjoying ourselves along the way. With developers interested in moving forward with their plans, the city reacts by moving up projects and funding dates. Our work is now and we invite you to be a part of it. You might want to create your own niche of study. You might want to join a subcommittee that has recently been created. You might want to come to our meetings and observe what is going on, without actively participating at all. You might come without any plans to go further than listening and in time find yourself becoming more active than you originally intended. But we encourage observers too. This is community democracy, town hall like. You can follow our progress in our league’s newsletter and sign up on our email list. You can follow what’s going on by looking us up on the Civic League’s website: www.cprv.org The city’s lead project engineer, Chuck Joyner, will be speaking to our league when funds for the project have been allocated and the process is under way. What we decide now will affect our neighborhood for generations. Share the moment. We have been meeting on the last Tuesday of the month—but to confirm, call Steven at 627-8606.
31 March 2004: Steven Tobias email
Updated February 24 Meeting Minutes from Kay Corr
Kay Corr, of Newport Ave, is reporting her findings in relation to the recreational benefits of the improved community path and boat ramp. I spoke with representatives from the Tidewater Striders Club, Contes Bikes and Fitness Equipment, the Ghent Neighborhood League (GNL), Norfolk Park and Forestry and numerous neighbors (via email, at the dog park or out walking on a nice day). Everyone, that I spoke to uses or are aware of the current path location. Some of those I emailed did not respond. Many recommendations made were beyond the scope of the Haven Creek project area. However, I included many of them to encourage communication. Please contact a member of this committee with your concerns, ideas and suggestions that should be considered.
There were a wide variety of surfaces recommended for the path (asphalt or concrete pavement, brick pavers, wooden decking, natural ground cover, etc). The majority leaned toward a packed and level natural ground cover or asphalt paving. Usability as well as cost and frequency of maintenance was a concern to all I spoke to.
I have since spoke with Bob Alderman of Norfolk Parks and Forestry as well as John Keifer from Public Works. Although Mr. Alderman prefers the “crush run” gravel path, given our tidal water and flooding concerns he recommends an asphalt path be installed. He mentioned that the treated lumber for a raised wooden bridge would be much more expensive, and need more maintenance over the years. Mr. Keifer concurred.
Recommendations and Considerations:
- Contes Bikes and Fitness Equipment and Neighbor
- The casual cyclist may use a path shared by pedestrians. Commuters and distance cyclist will typically stay on the roadside.
- long the roadside, add more signs to increase awareness of the bicycle route (most importantly). There is a bicycle route through Colonial Place along Colonial Ave (from 38th Street) and around Mayflower. I could locate only one sign on Colonial Ave at Carolina Ave. The primary concern of a cyclist is safety. Designated bike routes (adequately posted) are instrumental to increase awareness for the automotive community and safety of the cyclist.
- If possible, limit parking to one side of the road along the route. Some of the route along Colonial is already limited. The area between Delaware and Mayflower is not limited. Though Mayflower is not formally limited, it is rare that the riverside of the street is used for parking. Since our community has few driveways, on street parking is a necessity. This limitation requires more investigation.
- The preferred surface for a bike route is 1) asphalt/concrete paved or 2) packed and level natural ground cover (gravel).
- Tidewater Striders Club and Neighbors
- The Tidewater Striders Club mentioned that concrete is the worst surface, as it has the least give.
- Install a drinking fountain. The location near the dog park, green way and play grounds, would benefit many.
- Overall, the preferred surface for a walker/runner is 1) packed and level natural ground cover, 2) brick pavers or 3) asphalt paved. Some suggested a wooden deck (similar to a bridge) along Haven Creek, but recognized increased maintenance must be considered.
The walkers/runners will typically use the path. A path along the waterfront is preferred. The current path is not level and has some holes to look out for, making this impractical for runners, and arduous for walkers.
- Boaters
With the tidal water, a floating dock is a necessity for canoes, kayaks or smaller boats. When the water level is much lower than the dock, getting in or out of a small craft is very difficult, and typically requires getting into the water. If a portion of the new boat dock is designed to float with the water level, this will really impress the small boaters.
A community dock was suggested, so our homeowners could park a boat temporarily to make a quick trip home or pick up passengers.
- Ghent Neighborhood League
- “Set and post a curfew”. Midnight was recommended. Is this already set? I could not locate a posting along Haven Creek.
- “Install good lighting”. There is lighting now. Is it adequate?
- “Have the City install anti-litter signs and place adequate trash containers”. Some of our neighbors cautioned the addition of trash containers may actually increase litter. There is a trash container located at the Greenway, near the Dog Park. Are there any problems? One neighbor commented that those who bring items to the river or creeks should be willing to remove it as well. This issue requires more investigation.
- “Have signs posted against sleeping and pressure the police to enforce.” The Hague area includes long wooden park benches ideal for sleepers. We should ensure our path does not. Nearby, there are 2 concrete benches at Mayflower and Newport (the memorial). To my knowledge, these do not attract “sleepers”. A suggestion from one of our neighbors was to design the path to “encourage active use”. Neighbors who wish to sit and stay a while could bring a folding chair. Is there a compromise? All good considerations that require more investigation.
I have contacted the GNL in relation to “The Hague” area. I received an email from a member of the GNL board. GNL provided recommendations that we should consider.
Please contact this committee with your concerns and suggestions. The committee is looking for more members, especially those who are directly affected by the community path(s). Get involved, and guide the future of our community.
2 April 2004: Steven Tobias email
Minutes from 30 March Meeting
Minutes from Haven Creek Ad Hoc Committee 3/30/04
Attending: Steven Tobias, Jim Akers, Andy Wallach, Ann Fitzgibbon, David Block, Carol Wilson-Glenn, Melissa Baldi, Dennis Baldi, Gary Chiaverotti, Sheila Janes, Craig Reilly, Kathy Stark, Jack Kennedy, Kay Corr
Subcommittee digests
Kay—floating dock for small craft (examples zoo, Lakewood park)
Kathy--- meeting two city and a state official at Dennis’s house on 4/6/04 at 2:30PM; 400 Massachusetts Avenue. Kevin Dubois from the Norfolk Wetlands Department, Chuck Joyner, from the Norfolk planning Department, and Walter Priest who works for the State of Virginia’s Institute of Marine Sciences will discuss options with the committee for renovating the area bordering Haven Creek, etc;
Dennis volunteers to start committee to be liaison between waterside homeowners in area encompassing Haven Creek and Nichal Court. Map of five blocks, thirteen homes along Haven Creek. There are five homes in Nichal Court. This is our fourth sub-committee.
Some property owners along the waterfront are concerned with the public path fostering drugs, crime, sex, urinating fishermen. The public path provides cover and a useful passageway in and out of the neighborhood (for criminals).
[From last month’s meeting, for the record, many property owners are concerned when benches or/and trash cans are mentioned.]
Ann feels if the path is properly maintained and designed, these things won’t be a problem. She stresses redesigning with the environment in mind. She says people need to call the police when they see something out of the ordinary. Without any cover, she notes drug deals take place at the mermaid statue across from her house. She says people involved in crime are not difficult to identify. “They don’t act like people who live here.” Part of a well designed package would include an esthetically pleasing environment that would attract “the law abiding people we want to attract”, proper lighting, “No trespassing sundown to sunset” signs. The path is public park space. Several people bring up the dog park where before it became a dog park, it was a children’s playground and drug dealer’s business paradise. When the dog park was built, the law abiding dog owners the community wants to attract came and the drug dealers moved on, pushed out by the community traffic that blew their privacy and ability to do drug deals..
Jack talks about the Master Plan that encompasses a path from Colley Ave to the zoo.
David raises a point about the contiguous path being interrupted at the boat ramp. Andy agrees that with an eye to an overall master plan, we can better design each building phase starting with the boat ramp. It would be good if boat ramp designers could incorporate a walking path that connects people from the Haven Creek path to the Abiouness/Decker development.
Melissa asks what’s to prevent flooding along this path? Kathy talks about options that may be explored during the on-site meeting Tuesday—such as possibly raising the path to minimize or prevent flooding.
Kay talks about her surveying people in the neighborhood and their wanting a path. Ann suggests we might want to hire our own consultant. She adds the possibility of forming a public/private partnership to supplement funding by the city.
Dennis talks about Nichal Court residents who have lived here for 42 years who have told him that in all those years, the city hasn’t done a thing for their properties as the bulkhead deteriorates. Homeowners maintain and care for the “public” paper street. Dennis said that some homeowners have told him that they have purchased properties without knowledge of the existence of Mayflower paper street.
Dennis asks, “Why stop the path at New Hampshire Avenue?” He feels if the ultimate goal is to have a community path from Colley to the zoo, we ought to be talking about the whole thing as one project. Several agree, that we can better design each fragment of the project as both a project in itself and as a part of a “bigger picture”. The community area is referred to as "public park space". Dennis would like to survey Haven Creek and Nichal Court homeowners.
Jack wants to talk with Richard Levin who owns the vacant land on the eastern side of Granby Street adjacent to the river, sometimes called the “Christmas tree lot”. Mr. Levin may want to build condo’s there.
Andy says he can talk to Al Abiouness and Pete Decker and see how a walking path might be included in their design.
Steven suggest these efforts ought to be elevated into sub-committees for “big picture” coordination. Andy accepts chairing as liaison to the Abiouness/Decker development. Jack accepts chairing liaison for Riverview commercial and residential homeowners.
We close the meeting with a reminder that we will meet with Kevin Dubois, Walter Priest, and Chuck Joyner on April 6th at 2:30PM, starting point being Dennis and Melissa’s house at 400 Massachusetts Avenue – along the Haven Creek area under study.
20 April 2004: Steven Tobias email
Minutes from 6 April Site Visit Meeting
Meeting arranged by Kathy Stark for the Haven Creek Ad Hoc Committee
April 6, 2004 meeting beginning at the home of Melissa and Dennis Baldi 2:30PM
Chuck Joyner, city engineer; Kevin Dubois, city environmental specialist; and Walter Priest from the Virginia Institute of Marine Sciences tour Haven Creek waterfront, answering our questions and giving us their insight on ways we might go about improving the area.
Attending from the committee are Melissa and Dennis Baldi, Kathy Stark, Steven Tobias, Jack Kennedy, Kay Corr, Jeanne Ullian, and Craig Reilly.
In keeping with the bigger picture of connecting our Haven Creek community path with the Abiouness/Decker development and Granby Street business corridor on the eastern side of Haven Creek, we asked Chuck Joyner and his team of designers to include a pedestrian friendly walkway in the boat ramp design (initial phase of Haven Creek renovation project).
A consensus among our three professionals is that before they can make personal recommendations, there needs to be a detailed and accurate land survey to determine the boundaries and topography of the area. The results of this survey would determine how they suggest we go about improving and restoring it. We may be able to create wetlands on the east side of a path but it isn’t recommended that wetlands be attempted on the west side of this path—i.e. in order to create a sustainable path, any public land to the west would either dry up or create an undesirable ditch (as it exists now along a portion of the area) which expedites the deterioration of the existing (or a restored) path.
Kevin notes the water table is constantly rising.
Whatever we might come up with, Walter feels what we’ve got is not worth preserving so in any restoration plan, he says the best thing to do is start from scratch, tearing out the existing path and locating it as the surveying might best suggest. He mentions placing the path alongside the boundary of private properties which, if built with attention for aesthetics and careful plantings, might enhance the beauty and security of properties along this path. We might want to consider a slightly raised walk and pull out pilings and create a tidal marsh area to the east of the path. That might address drainage problems. Dennis observes this would be extremely expensive and not in keeping with the rest of Colonial Place. Homeowners might not want a path closer to their property. Walter responds that we can’t place a bulkhead in the river so we have to deal with what we have. A raised walkway like a salt treated bridge won’t address erosion or aesthetics and will cost even more. Dennis asks about a pathway-wide bulkhead where the cap is the path and the remaining land is wetlands. But Walter says by doing this, as in the above instance, eventually the wetlands will dry up, acting more as an overflow drainage basin with resulting erosion. An eco-balance suggests wetlands (if we have it at all) exist between river and path.
Again, a survey will help us map out what is best suited as wetlands (or/and possibly uplands) and where to restore a path. We could conceivably use the existing path as a trading chip (mitigation) when we see what better design possibilities we have. What we end up with after our surveying determines the cheapest and best design the professionals can create. Ideally we want a path that doesn’t flood and acts as a buffer. A pier is discussed as an option.
At this time we do not have survey funding but Chuck says he might be able to find some funds from the Greenway project to start this work sooner rather than later.
Neighborhood and Leisure Services might be able to give us an overview of possibilities and alternatives for community study.
Craig notes we have to secure the shoreline first.
The development property on the eastern side of Haven Creek has a stable shoreline and may not need a bulkhead at all, think the city engineers. We need a bulkhead only where the land erodes. Flooding is a separate issue. If the shoreline is stable, even with occasional flooding episodes, a bulkhead is not required. Unfortunately for us, the entire waterfront along western Haven Creek and extending around Nichal Court is eroding and badly in need of a bulkhead. Kevin Dubois feels we can get where we need to go once we have the survey and know what sort of funding is available.
In summary, we communicated our thoughts to these professional designers that we aren’t only looking at a bulkhead, a path, and protecting the environment but we’re also concerned with flooding, privacy, safety, and all the concerns homeowners have. The engineers are motivated to come up with designs that address all these relevant issues simultaneously as each fragment of the project is implemented in line with the city’s so called “Master Plan” for Colonial Place/Riverview. The biggest obstacles are time and funding. The city moves slowly. The budget committee has limited funds and a lot of projects to consider. Boundaries and topography along the creek will determine how these professionals design an optimal plan. The city would move the project plans beyond New Hampshire Avenue as soon as outstanding issues in that area are resolved.
25 April 2004: Kay Corr email
Nautical Adventures
Steven and I attended the committee meeting of Nautical Adventures www.nauticaladventures.org last Tuesday. We were very impressed with this fantastic group of water men and women. They appreciate that we sought their advice in regard to the Haven Creek project. They are enthusiastic about our rivers and creeks, and want to be involved in our efforts. They will have representatives attend our meeting coming up this Tuesday. We believe they will contribute a great deal of knowledge and energy to the effort.
We also learned at their meeting that they would like to host their annual Lafayette River Raft-up & Rendezvous right from our own waterfront (at Mayflower and Gosnold) on Saturday, September 25, 2004. This will include portable floating docks, kayaks and canoes, a raft parade and much more. Talk about recreational activities right here for us all to enjoy. The entire event is setup, managed and cleaned up by the Nautical Adventures organization. They will request approval from the CPRV board for the event, and I am sure they will fill us in next Tuesday. It is a day sure to be remembered by all who enjoy the activities.
I look forward to this Tuesday, and hope we can extend a warm welcome to them as they did Steven and I last week.
28 April 2004: Kathy Stark email
City Council Contacts re: Budget
Last night we talked about contacting the city council to encourage them to include funds in the 2005 city budget for improvements to the Haven Creek boatramp project. I think it's actually called the Colonial Greenway Project and will be funded in the capital improvement projects budget. I agreed to provide contact information to the group so that individuals can reach out and talk to council. It takes four votes (council) votes to approve a project in this city - just remember that when calling. I am planning to contact all city council members to see where they stand on this budget item. I suggest you do the same.
Remember, they will vote on what projects to include in the 2005 budget within the next couple of weeks. The public budget hearing is scheduled for 6pm Wednesday May 5 at Lafayette Winona Middle School. After that, they will have a retreat to discuss the items further. Then they will vote on what to include in 2005.
Hope this information helps. As each of us contact council, please share their comments with the rest of the group so that we can get a reading on what they're thinking. That's a good way to formulate strategy to meet your goals.
NORFOLK CITY COUNCIL
1006 City Hall Buildilng
810 Union Street
664.4268 664.4290 (Fax)
ccouncil@norfolk.gov
Paul D. Fraim
(Ward 2)
MAYOR
Fraim and Fiorella, PC
431 Granby Street
Norfolk, VA 23510
227.5900 (W) 227.5901 (F)
Daun S. Hester
(Superward 7)
VICE MAYOR
Hester, Hester and Associates
3728 Wedgefield Avenue
Norfolk, VA 23502
466-8570 (W) 466-8571 (F)
Anthony Burfoot
(Ward 3)
New York Life
4823 Winthrop Street
Norfolk, VA 23513-2737
441.5926 (W) 4415927 (F)
Paul R. Riddick
(Ward 4)
Riddick Fuineral Services
1225 Norview Avenue
Norfolk, VA 23513
855.9010 (W) 855.2883 (F)
Donald L. Williams
(Ward 1)
809 W. Ocean View Avenue
Norfolk, VA 23503
441.1610( W) 441.1611 (F)
Barclay C. Winn
(Superward 6)
Winn Nursery of Virginia, Inc.
1201 Liberty Street
Norfolk, VA 23523
494.1400 (W) 494.1217 (F)
W. Randy Wright
(Ward 5)
Randy Wright Printing & Publishing
410 Briar Hill Road, Ste. 102
Norfolk, VA 23502
466.1476 (W) 4661498 (F)
1 May 2004: Steven Tobias email
Additional sources of input/guidance?
If you know of a particular topic related professional in or out of our community who might want to help us in our effort to learn more about the problems and possibilities along Haven Creek, please contact me and we can invite this individual/organization to work with us. If you are interested in a unique and particular area of study that can contribute to our helping create the best solutions we can offer, no personal invitation is needed but heck, we personally invite you to jump in! Our meeting last Tuesday followed the usual pattern of being even more productive and better than expected!
1 May 2004: Steven Tobias email
Meeting Minutes for April 27 compiled by Kay Corr
The Haven Creek committee meeting was conducted at Enrico’s, chaired by Steven Tobias, on April 27, 2004 at 7:00p.m. The following were in attendance: Steven Tobias, Kay Corr, Jeanne Ullian, Jack Kennedy, Bill Presher, Sheila Janes, Kathy Stark, Carol Wilson-Glenn, Judy Priest and C. E. Reilly. Visitors in attendance from Nautical Adventures included Don Scott, Charlie Brown, Pirate Pete, Joe Filipowski.
Budget:
C. E. Reilly reported that the Capital Improvement Projects (CIP) budget proposal is being presented to city council tonight. This includes the Colonial Greenway Project, which is the official name of the Haven Creek Boat Ramp renovation. A public hearing will be conducted on May 5, 2004.
Charlie Brown, reported that CIP funding had strong support according to a report from Regina Williams, City Manager. He will investigate the Haven Creek project further and report his findings to us. Thanks Charlie for your help.
Kathy Stark requested that we all contact the city council to express our interest in the budget approval for the Colonial Greenway Project funded under the CIP budget. She will email the contact information to us.
Environment:
Kathy Stark presented an overview of the Haven Creek Ad Hoc Committee meeting conducted on April 6, 2004. Chuck Joyner, city engineer; Kevin Dubois, city environmental specialist; and Walter Priest from the Virginia Institute of Marine Sciences met with us and toured the Haven Creek waterfront, answered some of our questions and gave us insight on ways we might improve the area. Please refer to the Meeting Minutes posted for the details pertaining to that meeting.
Jack Kennedy reported his concern that the requirement for a site survey discussed at that meeting will slow down the process. Due to the efforts of our committee, we are ahead of the planning efforts and would like to stay that way. An aerial survey map, or previous survey map of the area will assist us to keep the ball rolling while the sight survey is completed.
Recreational:
Kay Corr reported that she and Steven Tobias attended the Nautical Adventures meeting last Tuesday, April 20, 2004. Several members of their organization are visiting us tonight. C. E. Reilly provided the mock-up plans of the boat ramp renovations for review. The following considerations were discussed:
- Fishing, or cleaning of fish should not be allowed, and strictly enforced. Haven Creek is not healthy or large enough to support it.
- Enlargement of the boat ramp may draw use from larger boats. Ensure the no wake zone is clearly posted and enforced. The maximum width in the city for a boat trailer is 8’, this will limit the boat size launched some.
- Provide adequate trash receptacle. Boat activity is typically a weekend event. Request trash pickup to be scheduled for every Monday morning.
- A water hose is not recommended as it may encourage fish cleaning.
- Ensure all rules are clearly posted. Most people will follow the rules if they are posted. There are always those who don’t, so work with the city to enforce the rules.
- Request the length of the ramps to be based on lowest recorded tide, not mean low tide. Recommended ramp length is a minimum of 8’ at lowest recorded tide.
- The mock-up plan for 3 ramps is too large for the area. The water conditions are poor. Recommend only 2 ramps in the final design. A floating dock between the two ramps is ideal. A floating dock is required to support small boats, canoes, kayaks or sailboats.
- Request an underwater pump fountain in the area. This will keep the water moving, and assist the filtering needed to improve the health of the creek. These are used throughout Hampton Roads, and are proven to benefit wild life and water health. It is also very relaxing to see and hear for the residents.
New York Street Closing:
Sheila Janes reported that the Lafayette Towers manager has requested that all future communications be directed to the owners. We do not know who the owners are. Steven Tobias will assist Sheila to identify the owners and get their contact information. Sheila suggested the CPRV civic league send a letter to inform the owners of our efforts, invite them to meet with us and provide them with a point of contact to communicate with. C. E. Reilly will send the letter once their address is provided.
Adjacent Residents (e.g. Nichal Court):
Steven Tobias reported that he has not gotten a response to his request for the status of this subcommittee. Therefore, no progress can be reported. This is a concern because the bulkhead along Nichal Court is a priority that needs to be addressed. The city has made it clear that no efforts to rebuild the bulkhead will be made until the community property is cleared of obstructions.
Jack Kennedy reported that a similar situation exists in Riverview. Much of the community property was heavily landscaped or blocked in some way. This impaired the view and access for the majority of the community. The CPRV board sent a letter to the city to address this issue. As a result, a city assistant manager was assigned, has visited the area and is working with the residents to resolve the issues. The city will not address this unless the community officially requests and urges them to do so. It is suggested that similar action be taken to ensure the bulkhead repairs around Nichal Court are completed. Steven Tobias suggested we reach out to each of the residents first. It is very important to communicate with the adjacent residents before further action is taken. We must ensure they have the opportunity to voice their ideas and concerns. We hope their involvement with our committee will increase, and the result will benefit them as well as the whole community. Kathy Stark and Steven Tobias volunteered to visit Nichal Court residents. Dennis Baldi has expressed interest in helping with this. The visit should be followed up with a letter from the CPRV. It is recommended that a list of facts involved in the issue be presented during these visits. The following facts were discussed:
- In 1999, the CPRV voted to maintain the existing community property for community use.
- The condition of the bulkhead, and renovations needed.
- The removal of blockage before renovations will be addressed by the city.
- Include survey of properties. Obtain these from the city.
- Follow up with a letter.
Developers:
Jack Kennedy reported the he spoke to Richard Levin. They discussed the path route through Riverview, adjacent to his property (the Christmas Tree lot). Mr. Levin’s initial response is supportive of the path.
C. E. Reilly reported that Andy Wallach spoke with Al Abiouness about the plans for the new development. The plans are not yet to a point where they can be shared with the committee.
The next Haven Creek committee meeting was scheduled for Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 7p.m. at Enrico’s.
1 May 2004: Andy Wallach email
Request to forward minutes
Does anyone object to sending a copy of the minutes to Assistant City Manager Jeff Muzzy? He is the one Regina Williams assigned to look into opening up the views and water access in Riverview. Besides looking at the water ends of the streets in Riverview, I showed him the Haven Creek path and talked about the possiblity of a continuous pedestrian route from Colley to the Zoo.
5 May 2004: Kathy Stark email
Norfolk Budget Action Needed
I just talked to Maggie Sayles in the City's budget department (664-4102) to find out what was in the budget for the Haven Creek/Boatramp/ Colonial Greenway Project for FY05. Here's what she told me: $50,000 is in the budget for FY05 and $400,000 is in the budget for FY06. This was done to balance the budget for 2005. So, in my opinion, there is not enough money in the budget to start this project next year. Council needs to be told about this so that the money can be added back into the budget for 05. I just talked with Barclay Winn and he was not familiar with what was in the budget and what was not. If we want the funds - we have to be vocal and make the case for why funds should be in the 05 budget. Haven't we waited long enough?
20 May 2004: Steven Tobias email
May Meeting Reminder
Haven Creek meeting next Tuesday, May 25th, 7PM, at Enrico's Restaurant on Colley Avenue.
Our Haven Creek project has an account balance of $50,000-- money carried over from previously funded design work. $450,000 was proposed for FY2005 and deferred for one year. There were many reasons for this but the good news is the encouragement we are receiving from those who had a hand in deferring this project. The feeling I get is that they are waiting for pieces to fall into place.
We're listening to outside "experts" and we have more to learn. But also, at some point, we're going to have to take our ideas and what we've learned and come up with a plan we can pass on to our league board so they can study and suggest, and take to the general membership for further comment and eventual voting. The city awaits this results of this process and other activities.
In the course of our listening to outside people, the thought comes up that our plan may become more ambitious than is realistic for the city to fund in which case, we will have to figure out alternative ways to raise the additional funds we'll need. It's all doable.
As we move along, we need to create closer ties and strategies with developers and neighbors not yet involved to strengthen our case and draw the attention of council.
We can do this thing but it's going to take some effort to bring parties together who do not realize how close we are to making it happen.
21 May 2004: Jeanne Ullian email
Design Ideas for Haven Creek
When you have time check:
www.cprv.org/haven2.htm
I have posted some pictures we took during May showing a wooden bridge along the waterfront in Chestertown, Maryland; plastic, porous paving used at Cape Hatteras; and a "trash free" park at Wye Mills.
2 June 2004: Steven Tobias email
Notice of Meeting Minutes and Design Suggestions
These are minutes from our last meeting, May 25th. Thanks to Kay for helping to write minutes and taking on a whole lot of tasks. As I will be out of town a great deal over the next period, Kay has accepted to co-chair. Despite the deferred financing to get this project going, I feel we are making good progress. We have our work cut out for us taking in new information but it was decided at the last meeting to begin our "report" that will eventually be the conclusion of our researching efforts. In that spirit, I'll repeat what Sheila and others have proposed being included in our phase one report (to the league board) and invite each of you to add, comment, and post here as we develop a consensus report for this phase of the Haven Creek project. Ideally, we'd like our final report on the boat ramp project include 1) everything each of us would like to see happen in renovating the boat ramp and surrounding areas and 2) coming to a generally agreed consensus that each of us enthusiastically supports.
Phase One: Suggestions our community would like included in the design of the boat ramp
- A distinctive pedestrian walkway around the boat ramp that connects the pedestrian paths on both sides of the boat ramp along Haven Creek.
- While the boat ramp is in the construction phase, we want to encourage neighbors and the city to continue developing ideas for the next phase, the Haven Creek pathway and landscaping and constructing a bulkhead along Haven Creek.
- The route of a walking path between Delaware to New York Avenues, connecting with the boat ramp.
- Additional lighting in the area, specifically between the boat ramp and Lafayette Towers.
- Landscaping designed over the entire area for a park-like setting.
- No wake signs.
- Crosswalk design joining the boat ramp, walking path to the Greenway and dog park.
- Floating dock.
- Landscaping the community area east of t